She was the moral compass of Knots Landing and one of primetime TV’s most unforgettable characters. Michele Lee — the actress, singer, director, and producer who brought Karen MacKenzie to life for 14 seasons — joins Steve Kmetko for a wide-ranging, funny, and deeply personal conversation. Michele shares behind-the-scenes stories from the Knots Landing set, from fan-favorite romances to the infamous pranks, and reflects on how her character helped shape conversations about marriage, equality, and resilience on television. She also takes us back to her Broadway roots (How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, Seesaw), her leap into directing at a time when women weren’t always welcomed behind the camera, and her personal journey through love, loss, and new beginnings. Along the way, she opens up about friendships with Joan Van Ark and Donna Mills, why Knots Landing still resonates today, and a surprising mid-air encounter with George Clooney that only Michele could tell. From the Broadway stage to the Seaview Circle cul-de-sac, Michele Lee proves why she’s a timeless star who’s still here, still sharp, and still inspiring. #MicheleLee #KnotsLanding #KarenMacKenzie #ClassicTV #80sTV #TVDrama #BroadwayMusicals #HowToSucceedInBusiness #Seesaw #GeorgeClooney #DonnaMills #JoanVanArk #BehindTheScenes #HollywoodStories #CelebrityInterview #StillHereHollywood #SteveKmetko
Steve Kmetko
Yes, I'm still here. Hollywood. And coming up on today's episode, she was the heart and soul of one of television's most beloved primetime dramas. Portraying a character whose strength, warmth, and moral compass anchored an entire neighborhood for more than a decade. From tackling tough issues on screen to navigating the highs and lows of Hollywood with Grace. She became a symbol of resilience, both in front of a camera and in real life. This is Still Here Hollywood. I'm Steve Kmetko. Join me with today's guest from the hit TV series, knots Landing Actor Michele Lee.
If this is your first time watching or listening to still hear Hollywood, what took you so long, even if you're a longtime fan, I have a favor to ask. If you feel it in your heart, please like and follow us on Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you listen to us. Or if you watch on YouTube, please subscribe. And with both, it would be great if you rated and commented on your favorite episodes. Thank you so much. And now on with the show.
Michele, thanks so much for coming to do our little podcast, Still Here Hollywood. How are you?
Michele Lee
I'm so good.
Steve Kmetko
It's nice meeting you.
Michele Lee
Oh, my gosh, please, Steve. Really!
Steve Kmetko
Really?
Michele Lee
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
Well, they can read through lines between the lines, whatever. First thing I'd like to ask you about is Knots Landing. Is that okay?
Michele Lee
To a degree.
Steve Kmetko
To a degree.
Michele Lee
Yes.
Steve Kmetko
We're not going to—
Michele Lee
Yeah. No. Very successful show.
Steve Kmetko
14 seasons.
Michele Lee
Hello.
Steve Kmetko
Do you remember about your first day on set? Now we'll test that memory.
Michele Lee
Yeah. I remember one thing I had, I was smoking at the time, so it was very thin. And I had, and when you see pictures of me in this wonderful bathing suit, because I was like 39 years old, and you could see my ribs, my bones, my whatever. That's what I remember about the first episode.
Steve Kmetko
Were you nervous that first episode?
Michele Lee
Probably.
Steve Kmetko
Did you know all your lines?
Michele Lee
When I don't make them up.
Steve Kmetko
Okay. did you enjoy Knots Landing? You must have for 14 season seasons.
Michele Lee
I was on the show for 14 seasons. It gave me wonderful opportunities because I was able to produce and direct some of the things off of Knots Landing. Okay. And it, you know, once you're on a show that's successful, they promise you anything. And if you ask, sometimes they give it to you. So, my production company was very, very into everything at the time, and I was very serious about it. However, Knots Landing the show became less and less interesting to me. Originally. Knots Landing was to be a Berman's like whatever it was with people live their marriages. And looking into the marriage and what would happen to it through the course of time. And it was wonderful. There were three couples at the time on the show, and I had the most fun because we were able to, and one of the reasons they loved the show anyway, through all time, is that we were able to do romantic comedy.
We were able to do pure out comedy and drama and things that would happen in real life, if you will. And my character was so much fun. Don Murray was my first husband, and everybody lauded him on that set. In fact, everyone called him Mr. Murray. So, he decided he was going to go off and do his own show that he had written a pilot for. And then my second husband, sorry, this isn't real life now. Calm down. My second husband was Kevin Dobson, who was a joy to work with. And I will say one of the reasons people loved our characters was because we really represented success in marriage. But they saw all the bad times. They saw the warts and all. But once we got fan mail saying when they were fooling around with maybe having my husband cheat on me mail that you wouldn't believe that they would never watch the show again if my husband Mac McKenzie ever cheated on me. Then time went by and it became more and more Soap Opera because they found soap operas were so strong at that time that it was difficult for me. It really was. And I certainly don't mind a good Soap Opera. Most everything is a good soap opera when you see it, even if it's streaming, you know. People know how to do that stuff, either well or not so well. But it became less and less fun for me, I will say. Because I didn't sign up for it. And tell me Michele.
Steve Kmetko
Michele?
Michele Lee
You're talking too much.
Steve Kmetko
No, you're not. Not at all. I was trying to, while you were talking, I was listening, but I can do more than one thing at a time.
Michele Lee
And I was I've heard that about you.
Steve Kmetko
And it's true. Now I've lost my train of thought. I can't, clearly can't do two things. Effect can't.
Michele Lee
I know you're attracted to me, but—
Steve Kmetko
Yes, I am.
Michele Lee
Most people are. Go on.
Steve Kmetko
Well, I'm not surprised. They don't have to talk. Did you start out on Broadway on stage?
Michele Lee
Yes. I did.
Steve Kmetko
Promises. Promises.
Michele Lee
No. Oh, they asked me to do it though. I did not do it. That's interesting that you said it, it sounds so me, right?
Steve Kmetko
Yes, it does. Because I remember seeing it in Chicago and I thought you were the female lead at that time, but apparently, I'm wrong. What—
Michele Lee
You are wrong once in a while.
Steve Kmetko
No, no, frequently.
Michele Lee
I will tell you the first thing. Okay. I did start on Broadway. I did a few shows before I was really noticed in how to Succeed in business without really trying. So that was the show that really recognized Who is Michele Lee? Okay. I ended up doing the film, so, which doesn't ordinarily happen. And I was—
Steve Kmetko
Which is a shame in a lot of cases.
Michele Lee
Oh, of course, definitely.
Steve Kmetko
I could name a few.
Michele Lee
Okay. I bet you can will talk later over a cocktail. Maybe and my flirting with you.
Steve Kmetko
You're going to get me in trouble.
Michele Lee
No. So I forgot what I was saying because I'm over 54.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, no kidding.
Michele Lee
Yeah, I am.
Steve Kmetko
Maybe you should go to 54 Below.
Michele Lee
I've been there too.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah.
Michele Lee
When I was singing a lot, because you know, I talking about the musicals I did. I did start as an entertainer, a singer. My mother said, I used to sing in the crib, and I'm not kidding. I always loved me, my voice. So, I fell in love with singing. And I did, I was known in junior in high school as the entertainer. I always sang. And then I sang with bands and got paid my $30 a set or whatever it was to start for, before my father, who was a makeup artist, ask one question and go five podcasts. Okay. My father was a makeup artist. And knowing that I wanted to be in the business, he brought home a trade paper that said, the ad said, actors must singer, singers must act, actors must whatever's left. Okay. He said, I think if you want this, you're going to have to realize that it is very difficult. You got to get ready for all the slaps in the faces, and you're not right. And you can't do this. And I think your mom should take you for your first audition. So, I went to the Ivar Theater right in Hollywood.
Steve Kmetko
On a little side street.
Michele Lee
Right. I don't remember the street, but yeah. I mean, everybody knew.
Steve Kmetko
I think the street is Ivar.
Michele Lee
Yeah. Yes.
Steve Kmetko
What a coincidence.
Michele Lee
God see, you do have a brain.
Steve Kmetko
No, I do. I'm not the scarecrow or anything, but I do have a brain.
Michele Lee
Have a brain. So I went, no, you look like you want to interrupt me.
Steve Kmetko
No, no, no. It's a wonderful little theater that I saw a show there that I was stunned. It was about shoot; it was about AIDS early on.
Michele Lee
Oh, angels. Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
No, it wasn't Angels. It was—
Michele Lee
Angels in America. No.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, well!
Michele Lee
We'll do this.
Steve Kmetko
Kathy Bates was in it on the Ivar stage. Kathy Bates, Bruce Davison, Richard Dreyfuss.
Michele Lee
Oh my God.
Steve Kmetko
And I went to this little theater. I'm like, what are these people of-- these are huge people. What are they doing here? And then I saw them go next door to <uncertain word> for pizza.
Michele Lee
Of course, we always did.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah.
Michele Lee
No, you know, the reason it was so good as all small theater or any theater off Broadway and otherwise regional, is because we discover things there. We do. And they might need little tweaks or a rewrite, but that's where we can observe and do what should be done. It just-- it's incredible. I'm going to tell you now the end of my story.
Steve Kmetko
Okay. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
Michele Lee
Okay. Yes, you did. You love your face and it's cute.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, thank you.
Michele Lee
No, it is—
Steve Kmetko
I inspired it cute.
Michele Lee
Right. I always have too, but no, I'm a little—
Steve Kmetko
No please!
Michele Lee
Okay. Anyway, so we walk into this theater and the show was called Vintage 60 19 60. I was going to college. Well, I'll tell you that. Oh, okay. Anyway, I walked in and this director was jumping on. His name was Jonathan Lucas. It was like Marjorie; I was Marjorie Morningstar. And he was, who's opposite Marjorie Morningstar? Throw it at us. Anybody. gene Tap, dancing Gene—
Steve Kmetko
Gene Kelly!
Michele Lee
Thank you. In the movie. Okay. And I, I was so in love with him. The moment I saw him, he was jumping on stage and off stage just asking the actors to do this step or whatever. And I hadn't really, no, I hadn't auditioned. So, I was there with my mom falling in love with him. You know, he had a cowboy hat and short shorts and boots. And my mom told me later; he's not going to be someone for you. That was my learning experience. But I got on stage, I put two feet on the center tape, and I sang, ‘’You make me feel so young, Frank Sinatra's one and a Half Garris choruses, and tagged’’. And the producers stood up to their feet and applauded me.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, that's all it took.
Michele Lee
Period. No, I'm serious. And then later that night, they called and they said, you have this part. It was a review. I have this part. So, I told my parents I should not maybe go to college and I should go right into the show, which I did. It ended up on Broadway. This show, it lasted only eight nights.
Steve Kmetko
Hey!
Michele Lee
Right.
Steve Kmetko
It's eight nights you didn't have before.
Michele Lee
But it was David Merrick who loved it and brought it to Broadway. And hence the end of the story is I became known on Broadway and I did show after show, but first well known in how to Succeed. Subsequent to that, I'm sure the artists would love wherever your camera is. Yeah. Oh, hi there. I'm sure you'd liked.
Steve Kmetko
They're not as big as they used to be. They're harder to find. I know. It's out there.
Michele Lee
I'm sure you all would like to hear this story. Especially, ah, you asked one question. You're in trouble. Especially my award.
Steve Kmetko
No kidding.
Michele Lee
Yes.
Steve Kmetko
Where did you pick that up?
Michele Lee
Over there on the console.
Steve Kmetko
Didn't I? Wasn't I a good straight man there?
Michele Lee
Oh, you were so great. You were-- well, I was nominated once actually for Knots Landing. Thought I'd get that in there. They don't give—
Steve Kmetko
Yes, they do.
Michele Lee
Okay. Anyway, it was a nice touch. Thank you for recognizing me for all my awards.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, you're welcome. I'm here to serve. What would you like?
Michele Lee
A margarita without salt.
Steve Kmetko
No, no. Can't do, no salt.
Michele Lee
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, I used to like him with salt, but I don't do that anymore.
Michele Lee
You, I know –
Steve Kmetko
No more drinking for me.
Michele Lee
The fifth soon. And we could all get –
Steve Kmetko
Face –
Michele Lee
Mexican. Awfully. Not that, but good food.
Steve Kmetko
Been there, done that. don't need to anymore. I just got over the headaches for crying out loud.
Michele Lee
Oh my God.
Steve Kmetko
And I've been sober for 9 years. I mean, I just got over my hangover. Tell me –
Michele Lee
Nine.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah.
Michele Lee
That's good.
Steve Kmetko
And we'll be right back. If you'd like to be more involved with us, that's Still Here Hollywood, you definitely can. Just visit Patreon.com/StillHereHollywood. You can support us for as little as $3 a month. You can get our episodes a day before they post anywhere else. You can see what guests will be coming up and submit questions for them. You can even tell us what stars you want us to have on as guests. You'll see what goes on before and after the episode. Plus, exclusive behind the scenes info, picks video and more. Again, that's Patreon.com/StillHereHollywood. David Merrick, you mentioned David Merrick famous Broadway producer. He was known as a task master.
Michele Lee
Yes. But I didn't work for him. After this show, I never worked for him again. But he did ask me, I think I'm right about promises, promises. He, oh, in fact, when he was in LA he'd say, can I come over? And he would sit at the bar and we'd sit and talk and come with a couple of people. And I believe truly he was enamored. And I just see he saw something in me as a Broadway significant person. Unfortunately, I didn't follow through, honestly. As a woman of wearing many hats I tend to wear all those hats and then get disinterested or I want to try another hat on. And that's what I did. But I had many successes on Broadway, and I love that theater.
Steve Kmetko
In particular musicals.
Michele Lee
In particular musicals. However, the last play that I did was Tale of the Allergist's Wife with my dear, dear wonderful French Charles Busch. Do you know Charles?
Steve Kmetko
Yes. I know Charles. And I'm going to call and tell him that you mentioned him on the podcast.
Michele Lee
Oh, I'm so happy.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, yes. He'll be happy too.
Michele Lee
Oh my gosh. I tell you; we still see each other after all these years.
Steve Kmetko
He contacted me through E, he wrote me a note or something, a very flattering note. And I contacted him and I said, whenever you pass through Chicago, and he passed through Chicago, he called me. And I went to see him perform. At a little theater that I was on the board of directors for.
Michele Lee
Which theater?
Steve Kmetko
It was called Pride Plays and Films. It was a gay theater company.
Michele Lee
It was, yeah.
Steve Kmetko
And he came and he performed for us to raise, help raise money.
Michele Lee
Oh, that's him.
Steve Kmetko
But he's just a terrific guy. And we went out for Mexican afterwards.
Michele Lee
Oh, good. We are all going out for Mexican on the fifth. Oh, thank you. No, really? Are you kidding? I can't. All of a sudden, she has a margarita in there.
Steve Kmetko
Diet Coke.
Michele Lee
Is this part of his quila? No. I am serious. I know, I'm talking way too much. But I'm having so much fun. And you do know when you know I'm going to go on, forever. You just sit back.
Steve Kmetko
Good interviewers. Shut up and listen.
Michele Lee
That be you.
Steve Kmetko
That'd be me.
Michele Lee
Oh my God. I am having fun. Only be without this. I can't have, oh, I'm going to put it down here. But they know I didn't have it before. George Clooney sent his Tecu over, told me, always loved his wife.
Steve Kmetko
What a beauty.
Michele Lee
I'm sorry.
Steve Kmetko
What was that face?
Michele Lee
No.
Steve Kmetko
I love a mistake.
Michele Lee
No. Hopefully we weren't like rolling.
Steve Kmetko
I do want to go back and clear one thing up. I feel obligated. I don't want the viewers to get the implication that Gene Kelly was GAY because to my understanding, he was not. And just in case that came across that way.
Michele Lee
Did I say anything about that? I did.
Steve Kmetko
No, you mentioned that your mother said, you know, he's not for you and –
Michele Lee
Oh. Oh, okay.
Steve Kmetko
And I just, you know –
Michele Lee
And we're going to cut some of this out. Correct?
Steve Kmetko
Yes, we are.
Michele Lee
Okay. I don't think he was gay, but a lot of people did think so. Maybe he was.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah. Because of those shorts.
Michele Lee
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah. No, I heard Elton John. I saw AD with Elton John this morning. Makes me think of this. Gene Kelly shorts. Conan O'Brien asked him to name his five favorite Elton John songs. And Elton John said, well, my favorite song is Your ass is a Magnet to me. And I thought, well, you know, if anybody deserves that song, it's Gene Kelly.
Michele Lee
Oh my God. Oh, was he brilliant? Yeah, he was amazing. He was, get me back on track.
Steve Kmetko
Okay. I'm sorry.
Michele Lee
No, it's fine.
Steve Kmetko
We were having George Clooney's tequila.
Michele Lee
Oh, okay.
Steve Kmetko
Does that remind you of a story about George that you might want to share?
Michele Lee
No, I didn't. But you know, he does that quila with his friend, I think. So, being that I mentioned it, I'm going to take one sip.
Steve Kmetko
Okay. So, do you have a rating on that?
Michele Lee
Oh, that's very good. And I have also a George Clooney story. It reminds me of something that happened between the two of us. Two of us. Okay. I was directing and had directed many of the Knot’s landings. And George had just at that time, started directing. And I had seen the first movie he directed. And lo and behold, I walk into the club, American Airlines, and there he is, sitting there. So, I just went up to him and I told him that I admired the movie. And we were on the same lot at one point of time, when he was doing the early series, he did. And he thanked me. The thing is that I think he felt safe with me immediately, or he never would've done what he did when we got on the plane.
Steve Kmetko
Don't go away.
Michele Lee
I was. I was in, pardon me, everybody. Because it doesn't happen often. I was in first class and George was in first class, and I was sitting there and he turned back around to me. He was in the first row, which I find very uncomfortable, but he was in the first role. He looked back at me and he said, come on, sit here. Because of course he'd be sitting alone in the bulkhead. Right. He doesn't not want to be bothered. And I thought, oh, it was actually very sweet, because I don't think he was doing it to flirt or pick me up or anything. He just enjoyed the fact. I had talked to him a little bit about directing and what I saw, and this is honestly true, what I saw with my intelligence about what he was doing. Kind of an interesting conversation he'd like to have with me. So, I sat down with him. We discussed his movie a little bit, and what I thought in life about different directors, major directors. And it prompted him to get into a discussion with me that was a little bit personal. I don't mean him picking me up, I mean, a little bit personal, telling me things about his life and people that he loved. Not worrying about the fact that I was going to be a chatterbox because I am not. I know it seems I might be, but I'm not. I hold many, many secrets. So, he was telling me about his friendship with a few different people who are well known and why. And I could have gone off and told a lot of people, which I never have. Anyway, as we're trying, I have the New York Times. We were going to New York, and I thought, how can I keep up this conversation with George Clooney for all this time?
Right. So, I picked up the New York Times and I started to go through the New York Times. So I go, la, la, la la la. I really read the New York Times. And he was there. And, you know, every once in a while, I pick up the Times and started reading again. He started talking to me about dating and how I feel about dating and the kind of men I would date. And I said, you know, often I'm not asked out. He said, are you kidding me? And I said, no, really. I said, I think men are a little bit afraid of someone who feels a little too dynamic and a little too, I'll use the word powerful because I was a little too successful. Who has the personality of someone who's out there? I don't blame men. I think that could be very scary. Especially men who might not feel that they have enough comfort in the bank, even if it's all that new money stuff. She said, no, you're kidding. And I was getting up to go to the ladies' room and he said, have you ever thought of dating a younger man?
Steve Kmetko
Draw your own conclusions, folks.
Michele Lee
He was younger than me. And I thought, holy, that was Donald Duck, by the way. I did Donald Duck a long time, but they fired me.
Steve Kmetko
I don't believe you. But go ahead.
Michele Lee
Yes. So, I thought, oh no, he's asking me out. It really felt, because he was, I was standing and he looked up at me, had a look on his face, and he said, have, but it was like, but have you ever dated a younger man? And I thought, fast, and I thought, or would you be interested in dating a younger man? I said, no, oh God, help me. I said, no, I haven't. It's like, I'm not attracted to them. Oh, I'm so lying right now. No. So, we get off the plane. I went back, I sat with him, get off the plane. He's having a car. Pick him up. I'm standing by the luggage. And he says to me, come here for a minute. And he says to me, now you can tell all of your friends that George Clooney kept trying to talk to you, and you kept putting that GD New York Times. Over your eyes so I wouldn't have to deal with it. And that was Ann and we hugged, and it was him actually saying there was interest.
Steve Kmetko
Have you seen him since?
Michele Lee
I think he locked me out of his home. I went twice, knocked on the door, and his wife with the twins were out the door saying, you shout, coming with an accent. Next question, please.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, I wasn't ready for you to be done.
Michele Lee
Finish.
Steve Kmetko
Please.
Michele Lee
Hold on. Okay.
Steve Kmetko
Let me go back just briefly to Knott's Landing. How much of Karen was you?
Michele Lee
I think, you know what happens on many of these shows of all kinds, the writers start writing toward what you're giving them. So, I think they wished Karen to start with, to be someone who was ultimately Karen. Someone who was strong, someone who believed in the good of people, someone who lived behind a picket fence, but who would defend anybody in trouble. She was one who worked for women's lib at a time when living wasn't so living, but equal pay, all that stuff. And standing up for a gay man who was going to be fired. This is early on, by the way, without us saying gay. He was a man that was being fired from the school district. And I don't know how—I don't remember how we handled it, but that was Karen. And what happened was they pick up on what you're giving them as the character, and they start riding toward the character. So, there's kind of this, here comes the church. No. it's kind of this wonderful thing that happens. And actually David Jacobs, who was the creator and writer and executive producer along with Michael Fireman, used to write Karen. He was brilliant at writing Karen. So, at that certain time, I was in heaven. I was so in heaven. But what was your, oh, how much she was in me. Yeah. And we had, as I started to tell you before, a sense of humor about our characters. We had the fun of the Ying and the yang and the blessings of this humor between the people that I had close to me on the characters that I had close to me on the set. But, you know, the March of time after 14 years did a lot. Anyway, we went through four presidents. So, if you start feeling the country changing as we are right now, I don't want to be political.
Steve Kmetko
I got it.
Michele Lee
But I will say, you know, there's Reagan, Reaganism, the 80s, the people who want to be close to money and tiaras and all those things. We always used to say about Knott's Landing that we were at home watching on our television, all those shows, dynasty in Dallas, but we weren't them. We were the ones that were kind of interested in that new world. I don't know, have we gone through three podcasts yet?
Steve Kmetko
No, we haven't. I'll tell you when you're done.
Michele Lee
Okay. Oh, at least he does that.
Steve Kmetko
Okay. You know, my mind wants to go someplace else sometimes. I just can't, you know, mouth and mind. It can be dangerous.
Michele Lee
Oh.
Michele Lee
Am I flirting with you?
Steve Kmetko
No, damn. Any onset pranks or stories that you care to share that were a little odd or funny?
Michele Lee
Okay. I'm going to tell you one that was the character that Donna Mills played was Abby, and she was the JR of Knotz Landing. Ted Shackelford, who was an incredible actor, who was married originally the character to Joan Van Ark. Kind of was swept away by Abby. And one day he was in the shower and the scene was played with Abby outside the shower, sharing this discussion with him. And at one point he opens the shower and comes out putting the towel around him, and they continue. So, we were actually shooting, everybody knew what was going to happen. And so, what happened was Donna was ignorant as to what was going to happen. And she was talking to him in the scene, and the shower curtains opened and he was totally top to bottom nude. Donna was purple, green, and yellow, which I always thought was a great combination.
Steve Kmetko
It works for the rainbow.
Michele Lee
And no, that we would do things like that all the time, on one of the birthdays, and then we would record it. Oh, okay. So, we have these delicious outtakes.
Steve Kmetko
I'll bet.
Michele Lee
And for a long time we wouldn't, I didn't want them out, the outtakes the gag reels because I felt honestly that our audience was so true to what was happening in that show, that the outtakes would destroy it. Somehow that they needed to live within the cul-de-sac. And I find that terribly interesting.
Steve Kmetko
Yes.
Michele Lee
Back to George.
Steve Kmetko
No, no, not back to George. He can have his own podcast if he wants with interesting guests.
Michele Lee
We have a podcast.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah. Tell me about that. That's one of the things I want to ask about as long as you brought it up.
Michele Lee
Yeah. We do. Joan Van Ark and Donna Mills and I, the three ladies from Knots Landing have decided to do a podcast. Now, let me say this, and a lot of people out there know, I was trying to back away from a lot of the Knots Landing PR stuff, because nobody seemed to know who I was before Knots Landing. I did so much. Before not, it's always, oh, Michele Lee, Knots landing. Give me a break. Can you say Michele Lee from the theater or The First Love Bug? I had a helmet –
Steve Kmetko
With Dean Jones.
Michele Lee
With Dean Jones. Yeah. And how to succeed. Anyway, they don't know. It's Knots Landing. So, people were asking us so often to do Knots Landing things. Many of them I did not do. And all of a sudden it was this podcast. And I will tell you, we had received so much mail about –
Steve Kmetko
Oh, yeah. You know, I've heard this being said of shows, other shows that are building up podcasts around what has been. Yeah. There's a thirst, a hunger for it.
Michele Lee
And I think, why do you think first it might be happening now?
Steve Kmetko
Well, because we're living in a very turbulent time.
Michele Lee
Thank you. I was going to say the same thing. I think it's true.
Steve Kmetko
A lot of us would like to make America truly great again.
Michele Lee
Right.
Michele Lee
You're right. We want to go back to a simpler time. And thinking of a simpler time. What's so interesting about Knots Landing, because it was on for so long, when we first started, there were many, many scenes in Karen's kitchen where Van Lee, who lived next door, who was her best friend, would come in the back door unlocked. And say, hi, Karen, I'm here. How about having some coffee? And I go, oh, coming. And we would meet in the kitchen and talk about life with our coffee. As time went by and things got not so great, we had to lock our doors on the show. She could not come in anymore unannounced. And Michele in life, in her life when I lived, I, we came from a lower to a middle class, lower middle class to middle class family. We had in our kitchen a nook. We all, we were sitting around the nook for dinner and whatever. And my Aunt Ethel, who was great at cooking pies, and she knew my lemon meringue pie was the favorite, would come knock on the back door and say, hi, to my mom. It's Ethel, I've got a pie. Same thing. Right. As time progressed, it became what it is today. And you know, we're all strained. And it's, I think you're right. I think people want to go back to the simplicity, excuse me, of that time when we could just laugh and turn on a show, a variety show. Although, and I think that's why the shows that are called Variety Today, which is the Voice and others, they're entertainment. They're easy, simple entertainment. You don't need Ed Sullivan. They're there and we're enjoying it. That's the reason.
Steve Kmetko
But –
Michele Lee
Don't say but to me.
Steve Kmetko
But don't sell yourself short. And I'm sure you're not, but when you say, can't they say Michele without saying Knots Landing, it's better to be known for something than nothing.
Michele Lee
Oh, that's true.
Steve Kmetko
I mean, you are, you've got something to really hold onto. You have a body of work to really.
Michele Lee
I do, but I'd like people to know the body of work is simply what I'm saying. I don't know. It might be my ego and I'm serious. It might be.
Steve Kmetko
Ego is a healthy thing when it doesn't get out of control.
Michele Lee
You're so correct. And that's why I love when I see people standing up for themselves. That doesn't happen often either. You know, people kind of become complacent and they go along with the other sheep. Are we getting too heady here?
Steve Kmetko
No, I don't think so. No. No. I haven't heard one person tune out. Not one.
Michele Lee
I could give you a little makeup lesson out.
Steve Kmetko
Oh.
Michele Lee
I'm lying.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, okay. You made me nervous. Steve, you look a fright. How have you seen Hollywood change for women since you came on the scene? A lot, I would imagine.
Michele Lee
Yeah, it has. When I first started directing, I'll use directing, okay, as an example. When I started directing, and I did a lot more than Knots Landing, I, the men were not overly thrilled. They weren't, and it certainly was before the women started to direct and people realized how brilliant women were at directing films and things that they were lauded for. So, when I directed even a Knots Landing and outside a Knots Landing, the men had a tough time with it, and you could feel it. It wasn't that they had to say anything to you, but you would see people doing their little whatever, talking to people. A Knots Landing, the wonderful thing about it, speaking of directing, was that there was no pattern for directors. They could do whatever they wanted to do. So, I was breaking some of the rules that directors might have done on any other show I was taking out—I was taking out walls of scenery that shouldn't have been and would take a little more time to, but I did it knowing that the audience has no idea what I just said.
But there's some scenes where walls are easily taken out because of the way they're made, and there's others that are difficult. They granted me anything I wanted to do, and I think they enjoyed what I wanted to do, but the men were always, oh, we're not going to get home at 6 tonight. You know, we just, I was allowed to just do it. And everywhere else. Now today, women are given a chance in anything, whether it's stage, anything, if it's stage or film or anything. And I don't mean just directing, I mean, owning your show, which by the way, I've done also with some of my movies. I own some of my movies. But anyway, I don't want to keep going on about this, but you ask a question that you know the answer for, and it is true. Women have gone straight up, they know what they're doing, and people are now understanding.
Steve Kmetko
Finally.
Michele Lee
Right.
Steve Kmetko
I don't, I feel like we didn't complete that. Tell me about your podcast and the three of you sitting around. And what's the basis of it?
Michele Lee
Okay. It started the basis was our Knots Landing friends, audience wanted more Knots Landing, and they kept asking and asking, and finally we said, okay, we'll do a podcast. We talk not just about, not at first, the first couple of shows we did was all Knots Landing. Now we do anything, we talk about anything in life, we do hello, stay away from politics, because that's an issue. It's too frightening.
Steve Kmetko
There's no winning –
Michele Lee
Always. There's no winning. You're right or wrong. And it, or you're up your dad, doesn't matter. Not good in your own home, maybe. But we talk about things that are fun. We talk about things that are ultimately female or just male, and people have been loving the show. They love it. And more and more people, as you did, and I love you for doing it. Ask to talk to us individually or together to get a little understanding of who are we talking about. You might have asked for me anyway without Knots Landing, but it's like, we're a buzz right now. You know, there's things happening and I'm very tired. I love that. I said yes to you, however, and they don't know it. But this is a Sunday.
Steve Kmetko
Yes, it is a Sunday afternoon.
Michele Lee
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
With George.
Michele Lee
Of course, he's very knowledgeable about the theater. But no, it's true. You know, normally I wouldn't do it, but of course, it's you and I'm serious. I think it's wonderful for us now to be able to talk to people with a real voice and those people who want to hear who we're all about can. The thing that Donna, Jonah and I are doing it's called we're not with a K, we're not done yet, WKDY. At Gmail or anywhere else you want to find it. If you want to find it, you put those initials in there and you will somewhere. We're all over the place.
Steve Kmetko
Tell me again, W –
Michele Lee
We're not K,
Steve Kmetko
WK –
Michele Lee
Done.
Steve Kmetko
D, yet.
Michele Lee
Y.
Steve Kmetko
Y. Okay. So that folks can check it out if they want to.
Michele Lee
And if they want to talk to me at all, they can reach me out. Oh, this is such an actress thing I'm doing now, but they could reach me on Instagram. Does anyone do this?
Steve Kmetko
Oh, yes.
Michele Lee
Oh, okay. At the Michele Lee. That's all I'm going to say. They'll find me. I'm all-over other places too.
Steve Kmetko
Alright. What gives you joy these days?
Michele Lee
The sense of humor, the laughing that gives me joy. And one other thing I have to say, a lot of people will understand this. My dog, Emma. See, having that dog for me really has saved me because so often, all of us, not just for me, and I just go for the joke, we're depressed. A lot of us have been through between that disease. We walked around with our masks and everything, and political drama that we've all been through one way or the other. It's difficult. I have Emma and Emma who was very pissed at me that I was walking out of that she knew a Sunday. She thought, wait.
Steve Kmetko
Wait just a minute. What kind of a dog is Emma?
Michele Lee
She's I was going to say Cockapoo, but she's not, she's a multi poo.
Steve Kmetko
Oh. A multi poo.
Michele Lee
And she's this big, oh my God. When she looks at me, you are too good to be true.
Steve Kmetko
You're talking to a person who loves dogs.
Michele Lee
Oh my God. Honey.
Steve Kmetko
I have to bring Jim bought this sweater because it's my uniform. But whenever I get here, I'm covered in white.
Michele Lee
Of course.
Steve Kmetko
Because the dogs on the bed. Go right to my clothes.
Michele Lee
And my dog sleeps with me. Do your dog or dog sleep with. Come on. We're a group. We're, yeah. You're part of my family. And I'm serious. And when I say she saved my life, I'm alone living in the house. And so, I'm alone living in the house, period. I talk to this dog like she's living with me. I'll just walk around there and go, okay, honey, we're going down to the office and to run into the office, I open doors to a patio and I go, you want to go out? And then she scratches. You're ready to come in, honey. Okay. It's like you constantly are talking to that dog that looks at you with such love.
Steve Kmetko
And devotion.
Michele Lee
And devotion. No, you know what? It should happen to everybody, whether it's a cat or a dog. I think they save our lives. And sometimes, what are the other pigs? People are doing pigs now. Okay. But we love pigs.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, we do?
Michele Lee
Mm. No, I'm not going to say that. I have friends that have pigs. And I understand, they're wonderful animals. It's so nice to have an animal. When you study them, you realize what life is because they know, and I'm not crazy. I'm not a crazy person. They know. They understand and they understand what you're saying.
Steve Kmetko
They do. They truly do.
Michele Lee
Yeah. And then let me tell you one thing that I am sure the audience wants to take home with them.
Steve Kmetko
They're probably already home.
Michele Lee
Oh, yeah. I thought you were making another remark, anyway. In bed with no sound. No. I play with my dog. Something that people would love to play with their dogs. I play something called Get Ready, sniff, sniff with my dog, she understands. When I say we're going to play sniff, sniff, she's, rolling over and she knows. And I don't roll over these days anymore. Okay. I didn't want to get there, but, okay. Now, George, are you hearing, anyway.
Steve Kmetko
I'm afraid to ask. What is she sniff, sniffing?
Michele Lee
Okay. Have we gone through everything in the dictionary?
Steve Kmetko
No, we haven't. No, no, no, no.
Michele Lee
I want two shows. Not one.
Steve Kmetko
Back with more in a moment. When you look at your remarkable journey from Broadway to Prime Time, what jumps out at you? What are you most proud of?
Michele Lee
There was a show I did very difficult. It was called Seesaw on Broadway. It was adapted from two for the Seesaw by William Gibson. And I played the lead character in it, but I had very little time to learn it. And it was out of town. It was in trouble. They asked me to come in and see it, and I did. And almost everybody in the show was let go. And Michael Bennett, who was the director took over and I learned the role and all of the changes that were happening daily in 2 weeks before opening on Broadway. Nobody can do that. And all the songs and some changes in songs. And I think in a way, there's a whole audience, mostly gay, honestly, that know me from that show Seesaw. Brilliant Score by Coleman, Cy Coleman.
Steve Kmetko
Cy Coleman and Lee Rose.
Michele Lee
Dorothy Fields.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, Dorothy Fields.
Michele Lee
Yeah. And everybody loved the show. The music's incredible. And I was Tony nominated and a few other things. I won like the drama desk award for best actor in a play. It wasn't as known as some of the others I did, but the trauma I went through to learn that show and did learn it, is something that I'm very proud of. And you –
Steve Kmetko
And me, I'm just, I'm listening to you.
Michele Lee
I know. It's so nice to have your full attention.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, you do. One of the things I'd like to ask you about you were married to the great James Farentino.
Michele Lee
Yeah. But you almost said Farentino. Which did happen.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah. That happened too.
Michele Lee
No, I never did him. Sorry.
Steve Kmetko
You want to tell me who you did? I'd hate to think we crossed paths.
Michele Lee
No. Jim Ferrentino, who was a wonderful actor and, and my child, David Farentino is my one child –
Steve Kmetko
Having Mother's Day.
Michele Lee
Thank you. And guess what?
Steve Kmetko
What?
Michele Lee
I have my first grandchild.
Steve Kmetko
Congratulations.
Michele Lee
It's everything they always talk about, which you always say and talk about your grandchild. It is, it's, her name is Gianna. Gianna, Gigi Farentino. And she's 4 and a half years old. And the other day I asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up, and she said a professional hairstylist, 4 and a half, a chef or a dog walker. Very seriously that she is so funny. But yeah. The interesting thing about Jim Farentino and me, he was the love of my life. He was, and I stayed emotionally tied to him till the day he died. And loved his wife. He was married a few times after me and his wife, Stella, his last wife. And I became very friendly because she understood the connection. And as a matter of fact, when Jim passed away, I know it's hard for people to believe, but I was in the room in the hospital when he passed away along with Stella and her sister. And I was, and she was in bed with Jim Stella just beside him. And I was on the floor holding the hand closest to me because I did, I know this sounds funny, but I didn't want to steal focus for her.
Steve Kmetko
Right.
Michele Lee
And so, I was down on the floor holding his hand because I had to be there when he passed away. And –
Steve Kmetko
Emotionally for you?
Michele Lee
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
It was important to you?
Michele Lee
Yes, it was important to me. And I'm not even sure he knew I was there, but I visited him a lot in the hospital.
Steve Kmetko
Was he in the hospital a long time?
Michele Lee
He knew that. It was it then. Not so, but during the course of his life, yes. And although he had problems with drugs and alcohol which caused him to be in the hospital more than once. He died of emphysema, which he never was without a cigarette in his hand.
Steve Kmetko
I was going to say, I remember seeing him once down in Laguna Beach. He was by himself, but it was a lot of smoking.
Michele Lee
Was it in the hotel or was he?
Steve Kmetko
No, it was on the street.
Michele Lee
Ah. Oh yeah. Constantly smoking. You know, I used to smoke. It's a tough one.
Steve Kmetko
Me too. I did too.
Michele Lee
You actually gave it up?
Steve Kmetko
Yes. 1992. I remember because I believe that was the year when California banned smoking in public places.
Michele Lee
Oh, my. I was in New York, but it was the same thing. Oh, what did they do? I quit also.
Steve Kmetko
Well, you know, when you're working in a newsroom and you're on a deadline and you're trying to think of a word.
Michele Lee
Yeah. Right. That helps.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah, it does.
Michele Lee
And it did help me to stay in shape thin, probably not in shape long.
Steve Kmetko
Maybe I should take up smoking again.
Michele Lee
I know it was easier.
Steve Kmetko
You glad you quit.
Michele Lee
When I quit, I would have to if I was out for dinner, that was when after dinner you're in a restaurant, you had to smoke and we were allowed to and –
Steve Kmetko
Or you're on the phone.
Michele Lee
I would, I would get up, I'd say, I'll see you in a little bit. I would go outside and walk around the block and walk around the block and come back. And then I was kind of, okay. Now are we on our third podcast?
Steve Kmetko
Yes, I think so.
Michele Lee
Okay. So, I have one more story about quitting.
Michele Lee
Smoking. Okay. Once I quit cold Turkey, that was not fun. And once I went to a doctor, a female doctor who took care of cancer patients and what she would do with me, and I did quit with her, she allowed you to smoke for X amount of time, starting with X amount of cigarettes a day that you would start with big. And then every time you saw her, she would take away cigarettes. So, you were coming down from the nicotine as you would in anything you were addicted to. Okay. And I remember, oh, and then she would record you in her studio smoking. You would light a cigarette and she would say, okay, take a deep breath in. Do you feel the burning? Do you feel it in the back of your throat? Okay. And she would consistently talk about the negatives. And then she would have you at home before you would go back to her again, play the tape while you were smoking. Interesting. Huh? At last, when I had one cigarette. Oh my God. Can you imagine being a smoker and having one cigarette left? And you know, once you do that, you're done. And so, the coffee and a cigarette in the morning, dinner, cigarette. So how do I make that work with one? Right. So, you take a couple of puffs and you put it down.
Steve Kmetko
You're kidding.
Michele Lee
And my dog went, no. Yeah. Put it down. I'd wait and I would have a week and I'd wait and I would do another one. And then I came to her and I said, you got to give me one more week. I get for one cigarette. You have to give me one more week. And she did. But I haven't smoked since then.
Steve Kmetko
I went through the American Lung Association. They were offering a quit smoking clinic at Glendale Memorial or, yeah. Glendale Memorial Hospital, I think it was. But I got so frustrated with the way they wanted you to quit. You know, whenever you pick up a cigarette and light it, write down, what songs on the radio, what you were doing, what you're thinking of. I like, oh, it's time for this. I just stopped. I didn't even take the whole thing.
Michele Lee
Yeah. I didn't go through this anymore. I'm not going to ride; I won't have a cigarette. Because you're making me write this down. Well, good for you. You stopped everything. That might be unhealthy.
Steve Kmetko
Well, it's been what 8, 33 years.
Michele Lee
Huh?
Steve Kmetko
Yeah. I'm not even that old.
Michele Lee
Oh, I'm nine. Yeah. Right. Maybe you didn't want that out to the world, but hey –
Steve Kmetko
Hey, whatever. You're wonderful.
Michele Lee
And you are too. When I tell you –
Steve Kmetko
Richard Kind said we'd have a blast with you, that you were a great, and he meant this in the best possible way. A great broad. There you go. You said it first. Yeah. He just sang your praises.
Michele Lee
Oh, that's right. I had so much fun.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, so did I.
Michele Lee
You know, it's difficult with all people to have that much fun. You passed.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, thank you. That's a relief.
Michele Lee
Oh.
Steve Kmetko
So did you.
Michele Lee
Oh, thank you.
Steve Kmetko
I really enjoyed it. I was looking forward to talking to you so much today because Tommy over here, she may have said something to you. She asked me, she's trying to getting into the business and around the business and her mother's in the business. And so, she was asking me, who you're looking forward to interviewing today? And I said, Michele Lee, without a doubt. Michele Lee. Even though we did Richard this morning, and he was great. But I said, you know, Michele Lee's been around a long time. I'm certain she has great stories and I just, you know, when I've seen her on interviews, she's just so engaging.
Michele Lee
Didn't we? Are we on the air?
Steve Kmetko
Well, we're not on the air, but it's –
Michele Lee
Yeah. I mean air and we're still rolling, is what I'm saying. Okay. Then I can't say what I was.
Steve Kmetko
Okay. Weren't you a favorite guest of Johnny Carson's? Didn't he used to have you on?
Michele Lee
No, not favorite, but I did a few times and you know, I think we did work together once I think you or not.
Steve Kmetko
We've already talked about your memory and mine.
Michele Lee
Right. No. Everybody knew you, but I thought maybe you –
Steve Kmetko
Transitioned.
Michele Lee
No.
Steve Kmetko
Right. No, it didn't do that.
Michele Lee
No. I thought, and I could be totally wrong. I thought maybe you said on the air that you liked one of the movies I did or not, and thought that –
Steve Kmetko
That's for television. Not for movies.
Michele Lee
Never mind.
Steve Kmetko
Thank you so much.
Michele Lee
Thank you.
Steve Kmetko
I also like this ring.
Michele Lee
Oh, it's cute, right?
Steve Kmetko
And if anybody gets fresh, you can haul off and slug them.
Michele Lee
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
What stone is that? Do you know?
Michele Lee
An orange brownstone.
Steve Kmetko
There you go.
Michele Lee
I've always wanted an orange brownstone in New York, however.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, brownstone. Not grownstone. Brownstone.
Michele Lee
That's right. Oh, okay.
Steve Kmetko
Thank you, Michele.
Michele Lee
Thank you so much.
Steve Kmetko
You can finish your drink.
Michele Lee
I don't want it now. It was good for a joke.
Steve Kmetko
Okay. I understand that too.
Michele Lee
Thank you.
Steve Kmetko
Anything for a laugh?
Michele Lee
Thank you so much. It was fun.
Steve Kmetko
Still Here Hollywood is a production of the Still Here Network. All things technical run by Justin Zangerle. Theme music by Brian Sanyshyn and executive producer is Jim Lichtenstein.