In one of his final interviews before his passing, beloved Cheers star George Wendt (Norm!) joins Steve Kmetko for an unforgettable conversation on Still Here Hollywood. Wendt reflects on his 50-year career in television and theater, the magic of Cheers, hilarious behind-the-scenes stories with Woody Harrelson and Kirstie Alley, his advice to nephew Jason Sudeikis, and why he still dreams about being on set. From Second City to sitcom legend, Wendt shares heartfelt memories and sharp humor in this moving farewell. #GeorgeWendt #CheersTVShow #JasonSudeikis #SitcomLegend #SecondCity #TVHistory #StillHereHollywood And it’s that Norm, that I’m talking about… This is STILL HERE HOLLYWOOD, I’m Steve Kmetko. Join me with today’s guest, George Wendt, Norm from “Cheers”.
This is STILL HERE HOLLYWOOD, I’m Steve Kmetko. Join me with today’s guest, George Wendt, Norm from “Cheers”.
When you think about the biggest comedy shows in television’s history, there are always a few things that stand out. There’s of course the writing. The ensemble cast. Sometimes, the music. And there’s very often at least one character who’s name resonates, staying in pop culture for decades. This fact is pretty much the “norm”.
And it’s that Norm, that I’m talking about…
Steve Kmetko
Yes, I'm still here, Hollywood. I'm coming up on today's episode.
George Wendt
I met Woody the night before his audition. Woody says Hey look, I'm auditioning for your show tomorrow, and I'm auditioning to place the coach, be the new bartender. And I said, oh man, that's great. Well, my name's George. What's your name? He goes, Woody. And I said, oh, no, no, not the character name. What's your name? He goes, Woody. I think I might be seeing you tomorrow. I don't know. And sure enough.
Steve Kmetko
Say your nephew is Jason Sudeikis.
George Wendt
Indeed he is.
Steve Kmetko
Did you have any advice for him when he got into the business?
George Wendt
I forget it was Letterman or Conner or somebody said, did your Uncle George have any advice for you? And Jason goes, yeah, he told me. Just get on the best show on television and one of the greatest shows of all time and just pretty much take it from there.
Steve Kmetko
When you think about the biggest comedy shows in television history. There are always a few things that stand out. There's of course, the writing, the ensemble cast, sometimes the music. And there's very often at least one character whose name resonates, staying in pop culture for decades. This fact is pretty much the norm. And it's that norm that I'm talking about. This is still here Hollywood. I'm Steve Kmetko. Join me with today's guest George Wendt Norm from Cheers. George, do you miss Cheers?
George Wendt
God, yes.
Steve Kmetko
Do you?
George Wendt
You know how I know.
Steve Kmetko
How?
George Wendt
I have dreams about it.
Steve Kmetko
That's pretty committed to a show.
George Wendt
Yeah. I mean it. And then they're really happy dreams, you know, be like, we'll be sitting there and we'll be laughing hysterically. And Burrows will say, ah, that's great. That's great. Let's put it in the show. And then I wake up and there's no show to put it into.
Steve Kmetko
How long has this been going on?
George Wendt
Well, I don't know. 1993, I guess.
Steve Kmetko
Were you drinking real beer on the set?
George Wendt
Nope.
Steve Kmetko
Nope.
George Wendt
No. It was non-alcoholic near beer. Flat, warm, salty. Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
Really Got you in the mood, huh?
George Wendt
And then once in a while towards the end of the evening. We would shoot pickups of stuff that we only took one pass. So, we had a list of pickups that were a little dodgy. So, at that point, we would ask the prop man to crack out the real beers, including the producers and writers and boroughs and everybody. Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
Was it like that? I remember there was a period of time because I was working for NBC affiliate in Louisville, Kentucky, early in my career. And I remember when Cheers came on, because it was so good right off the bat, it seemed to me. But I think they had difficulty finding an audience in the beginning. And it almost got canceled.
George Wendt
Yeah. We were last, dead last in the raining.
Steve Kmetko
What fixed it?
George Wendt
Nothing time, you know letting okay. Grant Tinker and Brandon Tartikoff in their wisdom, decided to abandon the develop, pilot, order, cancel cycle and just trust the creators and the material. And leave it there until the audience found it. Because that mean they were last for maybe a decade, in the three, had three networks at the time. So, that's when, why they hired Grant Tinker, because of his quality work at MTM. And so, he put on like St. Elsewhere, cheers. Family Ties, just, he had a relationship with Gary Goldberg. And, and so, it was history proved that it worked out for him.
Steve Kmetko
And for Cheers.
George Wendt
And for Cheers and Brandon Tartikoff was in my first workshop at Second City.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, really?
George Wendt
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
How long ago was that 73?
George Wendt
73. Yeah. He was an executive. I didn't know this. He was just my friend from Workshop, Yale guy my age, you know, I was like, oh, this guy's cool. And, you know, we had a lot of fun together. And then he disappeared one day, and I was like, Hmm. What happened to Brandon? Well, what happened to Brandon was he was you know, a junior executive at WLS, the O&O ABC station. And Fred Silverman was at ABC at the time, and he called him to New York. And that's why, well, Brandon, it sucks. He was my boy. And then, you know, years later,
Steve Kmetko
How much do you think starting out at Second City helped your career?
George Wendt
Look, it was the entire it was the entirety of my experience on stage, the entirety of it. I had nothing going on before that. And it's funny because we in the workshops had this little showcase at a church down the road from Second City on Saturday nights. And Brandon and I were, were too green to be, you know, on stage, but we wanted to be on board. So he volunteered to sell coffee and cookies, and I volunteered to set up and break down the folding chairs and stuff. And one night there was this triumphant show, and the audience just buzzing. And as they're filing out, I'm Brandon's breaking down the coffee and cupcakes and whatever, and I'm breaking down the folding chairs. And he goes, George, one of these days it's going to be me and you up there. Turned out to be true. Only it was like a hundred million people.
Steve Kmetko
Small crowd.
George Wendt
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
Second City is such a reputation. I took a couple of writing classes there.
George Wendt
Oh, great.
Steve Kmetko
Writing the humorous memoir. I didn't have enough of a sense of humor.
George Wendt
Who taught you?
Steve Kmetko
Nancy Beckett. I'm still in touch with her. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. And she was very encouraging. Let me go back to Cheers for a second. Do you have fond memories of Kirstie Alley? Funny memories of Kirstie Alley?
George Wendt
Oh my God. She was a pistol man. She was, yes. She was just hilarious. And, you know, kind of out of her mind in a, in the best possible way, something, you know, it was very necessary for you know, where we were all at. She was, you heard the story about our opening night gift?
Steve Kmetko
No.
George Wendt
Well, you know, we've all, we're all pretty wrapped up in ourselves. And one night we, at dinner before the, for Kirsty's first shoot, and she wasn't in the room. And I get, I don't know, Ted, John, me, R Woody were there, you know, oh God, should we get Kirsty something? I mean, it's now five or six o'clock. And we're like, oh, yeah, nobody thought of that yet. And I was like, no. What flour? No, no. Geez, what do we and so we, we should go get her something. And you know, Ted's like, I got to do a thing and I can't do it. I, what do you, I had a thing where, so John and I go, well, all right, we'll, we'll go look for something. So we get in my car and, and we're driving down Melrose, you know, trashy lingerie, and, you know, like crazy stores.
And we're like, wig shops? No. Yeah. No, no. And we pulled up and there was a big five on the right sporting goods store. And John goes, you want to
Steve Kmetko
That is good news, huh?
George Wendt
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
Who needs that responsibility and coach, you lost Coach very early on. I thought he was such a terrific character.
George Wendt
Yes, he was.
Steve Kmetko
And who would've thought that you'd bring in Woody Harrelson, and he would work out as well as he did?
George Wendt
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I met Woody the night before. His audition randomly. I was at Gelson's, and I saw these two young guys giggling and pointing at me. And, and we were on the air about two, three years at that point. So I was getting a little used to that. And one's pushing the other one towards me. And I'm like and, and then finally he prevails that, keep pushing. And Woody says Hey look, I'm auditioning for your show tomorrow. My friend thought I should say hello. And I'm auditioning to replace the coach, be the new bartender. And I said, oh, man, that that's great. Well, man, have fun with that. That's that's go get him. You know? And he goes, yeah, thanks. I said well, my name's George. What's your name? He goes, Woody. And I said, oh, no, no, not the character name. 'cause I knew that, that the writers, I knew that there was a character from Indiana, Woody Boyd. I said, no, no, not the character name. What, what's your name? He goes, Woody, I think I might be seeing you tomorrow. I don't know. And sure enough.
Steve Kmetko
And he fed in beautifully.
George Wendt
Oh, yeah.
Steve Kmetko
And now he has this huge movie career.
George Wendt
Yeah. And look back at Nicky Coli Santo's movies too, you know, like Fifth City and Raging Bull. And he was amazing.
Steve Kmetko
It's been a while since Cheers went off. It was on for, what, 11 years?
George Wendt
Yep.
Steve Kmetko
It's been a while since it's gone off the air.
George Wendt
Well, it's never really been off.
Steve Kmetko
Well, true reruns. Thank God for reruns. How many people still call you Norm?
George Wendt
Oh, not that many. You know, I look so much older and different. My little brother on the other hand though, it looks exactly like Norm, and he's like 14 years younger than me.
Steve Kmetko
So, do you think being so closely identified with Norm during the run of the show kept you from other jobs?
George Wendt
Yeah, probably.
Steve Kmetko
Yeah.
George Wendt
Probably. I mean, I mean, there's plenty examples, you know, of people who it did not keep from, you know, like Woody,
Steve Kmetko
You know, looking through your list of credits in IMDB. Have you ever done that? It's very long.
George Wendt
Yeah. Well, you know, oh man, I get to say this now. I'm in this business 50 years, you know, like I used to laugh at those guys. I'm in this business 50 years and these kids today. That's not funny. I know. Funny. I'm in this business 50 years. That's not funny what they're doing today. Anyway, yeah, me, 19. I'm going to count from workshops with Brandon 1973. Yeah. And also, I joined Actors Equity in 1974 when I got hired in the touring company at Second City. So that is bang on 50 years professionally.
Steve Kmetko
50 years is a long time. Do you have a favorite memory from that period? Something that stuck with you all this while?
George Wendt
Wow. Too many.
Steve Kmetko
Too many. You're lucky.
George Wendt
Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
And you're good.
George Wendt
Oh, well, thank you.
Steve Kmetko
Say your nephew is Jason Sudeikis.
George Wendt
Indeed. He is.
Steve Kmetko
Did you have any advice for him when he got into the business?
George Wendt
You know, it's funny because he gets asked that a lot.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, does he?
George Wendt
Yeah. And I saw I forget it was Letterman or Conner or somebody said, did your Uncle George have any advice for you? And Jason goes, he's so, he's so sharp. He goes yeah. He told me just get on the best show on television and one of the greatest shows of all time and just pretty much take it from there. And he goes, so I did. And he got on ISNO and,
Steve Kmetko
And Ted Lasso has
George Wendt
Duh. Yeah.
Steve Kmetko
Secured him very, if he wasn't before, he's, he's now a fixture on tv.
George Wendt
Yep. Well, deserved.
Steve Kmetko
Well, I think so, too.
George Wendt
Oh, he's such a great kid. You know, kid, he's 45 or something. I don't know.
Steve Kmetko
That's a kid.
George Wendt
Yeah. My ne my godson, I'm very proud. Proud. Especially, you know, not only the success, but he's solid. Have you read profiles and stuff? I mean, he's so, such a mesh, so smart, so thoughtful. I mean, it all comes out in the show. Right?
Steve Kmetko
We'll be back in a moment.
George Wendt
But the better story is Ratzenberger, he goes in for viral for George. You can tell it's not going too well. And so they're going, well, thank you. And he's like, yeah, thank you. And he starts to go for the door, and, and he pops his head back into the room and he goes, do you guys have a bar know it all? And they go, no, no. What do you, what do you mean? And he started improvising as this Cliff Clavin character. And they wrote it in.
Steve Kmetko
How close were you to the character of Norm?
George Wendt
I had to look like a guy who wanted another beer. I'm like, that I can do. So, you know there wasn't a whole, I didn't have to put a lot of mustard on anything. It was pretty much just me with material supplied by some of the best, you know, comedy writers in Hollywood of the era. It was Murderers Row. I mean, we had, every day of the week, we had all these Paramount guys, you know, Jerry Belson Levine and Isaacs, David Lloyd. Yeah. It was, it was just great.
Steve Kmetko
Do you keep in contact with your castmates, your former castmates? Do you ever run into them?
George Wendt
All of them. Yeah. I do. I mean, it's hard to get together, you know? Because
Steve Kmetko
So much is going on.
George Wendt
Yeah. We all have families and, and, you know. Yeah. But yes, I do. I'm in touch with everybody.
Steve Kmetko
Do you have any projects in the works? Anything you want to do?
George Wendt
Not really. You know, I mean, yes, there are projects in the works, but you know, that's, that's so amorphous. Unless, you know, it's like, you know, a setup movie or something, you know, that and you know, like I get things like hey, what if we got this element in that element? Would you be interested? And it's like, eh, it's a few steps down the road from anything being set up. So, it's hard to you know, say this is the one. So yeah. The answer is of various irons in the fire. None of them are going to burn your fingers.
Steve Kmetko
What made you want to get into the business to begin with?
George Wendt
I didn't. All I wanted to do was be in Second City. Yeah. I was so, so green, so dumb. I had no I, I'm really thankful de facto that I had such a short-term goal focused. I just was wanted to not, I wanted to, I didn't want to be in a job that I hated for the rest of my life. So, I started using the process of elimination. You know, doctor, no, I couldn't possibly scientist, no teacher, no sales, no. You know, and I just went down the list, policemen, firemen, whatever, cowboy. I mean, I couldn't nothing. I knew I would hate everything. So then on one day I thought of being at Second City, and I thought, wow, if I could do that, I bet I wouldn't hate it. And I'm pretty sure they get paid. And so, I, you know, I, I sort of called the box office, and they loved that asked about the workshops and they said well give us your address. We'll send you a flyer. 13 weeks, 85 bucks Tuesday, Tuesday nights.
And at six or something. And we were out by age. And the show started at nine back then Cabaret, you know they started at eight. Now they start more like a theater now. But and I don't even know what Second City is anymore. But back then it was, it was a blast. I had fun. And it wasn't really until, you know, I'd been there working. And then, you know, they, they called from like Leo Burnett or something and said, Hey, can you send the people some of the cast over for you know, we're going to do some commercials, or we're going to have some demos for commercials, that sort of thing. And they said, well, you have to join sag. I'm like, what? What? Okay. I get, yeah, sure. And then, you know, this other project was, oh yeah, you got to join after now. And it's like, oh, okay. So here I am, a member of SAG after an equity. And I go, well, I guess I'm an actor. I mean, it really went in a, you know, in reverse. It was weird.
Steve Kmetko
Now that you've been an actor for 50 years. Can you think back or can you think about anybody who you wish you could have worked with? Do you have. Who?
George Wendt
Lots Oodles. I mean, I didn't really have the opportunity mind you, but I was in this project Alison Wonderland. And I was Tweedle d or Tweedle dumb, I can't remember. We called him Tweedle Dom and Tweedle Dumber with Robbie Coltrane was my brother. And it was fun. We had a blast. But it was a big star study cast. Marty Short was the Mad Hatter and whatnot. And Ustinov Peter Ustinov was the walrus. And one day I never met him. And then one day we, you know, driving in a transportation van at Pinewood Studios outside of London or wherever it was. And I see Houston, I was standing on a street corner. I'm like, and I practically dove out of the van. And but I couldn't You get it open and how do you roll down the window? And so there he was, but I thought he was awesome. Never met him, but we were in a movie together.
Steve Kmetko
Well, you can always point to that. Yeah.
George Wendt
And, you know, that was what one of the fun things about Multicam comedy or, you know, sitcoms you know, rest in peace, so to speak. But you know, we were with, everybody was in every day. So, you know, you got to meet, like, you know, somebody working with you, you, you got to hang out with them for like a week as opposed to a drive by with Peter Houston offline.
Steve Kmetko
Oh, it's better than nothing. Are there other, other second City stars that you worked with who came up through the ranks?
George Wendt
Yeah, lots and lots.
Steve Kmetko
Shelly long was in,
George Wendt
Yes. Shelly was there with in the same time. You know Tim Krinsky, Mary Gross
Steve Kmetko
Mary Gross. I saw her once in long before she went to work at SNL and other shows and films.
George Wendt
Yeah. Jim Belushi others, you know, like Don Depo. Yeah. They're not so many Harold Ramis and John Belushi's. And although they were my idols, John Candy got to work with him. That was a blast.
Steve Kmetko
I think Joan Rivers did a stint at Second City, too.
George Wendt
Oh, sure. Yeah. Everybody.
Steve Kmetko
Elaine May. Mike Nichols
George Wendt
You didn't, wait a minute. You weren't there.
Steve Kmetko
You weren't. No, no.
George Wendt
See, like, you're like the only person in show business that didn't claim Second City.
Steve Kmetko
Well, just took a class, that's all. Do you remember how you felt the morning after you knew Cheers was ending?
George Wendt
Well, I was ill from through some, the boys, Glenn and Les and Jimmy were into cigars at the time. So, they were passing out these huge Cuban illegal at the time, cigars at the wrap party. And you know, I'm not a smoker. And I did, you know, I just thought it was cool. And I got completely turned green from inhaling cigar smoke.
Steve Kmetko
Are You, you're not supposed to inhale, are you?
George Wendt
No. But you know, just after a while it just builds up. I think, you know, because everyone was smoking it.
Steve Kmetko
Here's a question I'll bet no one's ever asked you. What do you think about the Met Gala?
George Wendt
I don't understand fashion. And you know, I, my daughter is involved in the apparel design. And she could probably explain it a lot better. But there's that great speech by, I guess it was Meryl Streep, the Amanda Priestly character in
Steve Kmetko
Double Words Prada.
George Wendt
Thank you. Yeah. And that made a lot of sense in, in the movie. I don't remember any of it, but
Steve Kmetko
I think it's where she's talking about the color Cerulean and blue and,
George Wendt
And, but like, why fashion is important.
Steve Kmetko
Yes. Right, right.
George Wendt
You know, in a real big way, comprehensive way. But it's kind of ludicrous, isn't it?
Steve Kmetko
Yeah. Sometimes I think it's kind of overblown. It's not like they're going to wear these clothes again.
George Wendt
No. Never.
Steve Kmetko
I don't know if it really counts as fashion, per say. and you know, they're not going out the next night in the same clothes.
George Wendt
No. But it, I think in part of well, so, okay, folks, anyone watching Look Up the Miranda Priestly? Anyway, because she, it makes a lot of sense. What, how it, yes, none of this is going to be worn, but it's part of something much bigger. And I forget what it was.
Steve Kmetko
Do you remember your audition process for Cheers? Was there an audition?
George Wendt
I do. I do. I've got a good story there for you. It doesn't involve me. But my end was my agent called and said OKAY. I was on this other show with Gary Goldberg called Making the Great Paramount Show, different networks, CBS and we had just done six as a midseason sort of tryout, six episodes. And so, then my agent calls and says yeah, these guys from Cheers, they want you to come in and do a thing. It's really small role that I got to tell you. I go, oh, okay. And I'm flattered, you know, and so I, what, how small is it? And she said, well, it's kind of one line. And I go, oh, okay. It's actually you know, come to think of it, it's one word. I go, oh, really? You're not going to believe it.
It's one syllable. And I go, okay, what is it? And she goes, beer. So the bit was, it used to be the tag at the end of the, the pilot episode, which never really happened to the tag part. But Shelly was going to I was going to be her first customer. Hello, my name is Diane. I'll be your waitress. So I'm not really a waitress, I'm an academic. And she goes on for a page, and I'm just sitting there like, Uhhuh. And she goes, oh, I'm sorry. I should take your order. What can I get you? And I go, beer. And she goes, beer. Perfect. And that was the end of the episode. And so the casting director the late Steven Kmetko said, you know, that that's one word that's too small to read for the guys here read this other, and the Rose George.
And it's the guy who you know, wants another beer. And well, they, I read it and they offer it to me. And you know, I, at first paramount said, well, sure you, why don't we see if you can do both? And but CBS said no. So they said, well, let's bring you on for the pilot as a guest. And if making the grade this other show gets picked up you know, we will recast. And if it doesn't, you know, we will probably, you know, keep you. And so then like 20 years, maybe 10 years ago, like way, way, way later, I found out that they kind of had me in mind when they wrote it. And I was like, I had no idea. And because it was named George, right? And they, they had worked with, I did a taxi, and I guess you know, I guess they thought maybe I'd be right for this norm.
And so it, I went to, they invited me to come to a symposium at UC sb with the Charles Brothers and Jim Burrows, and they said, why don't you come and you'll be like a surprise guest about halfway through the program. And so people are going, and I'm sitting in the wing watching, and people are going, now, did you have anybody in mind when you were writing cheers? And they were like, oh my God, no. Oh, oh, we saw everybody in Hollywood and New York and Chicago. We, it meticulous mix and match chemistry. That was Sam and Diane, right? And they go, but Ria, we, we did have Ria in mind, and George, and I'm like, the Hell,
Steve Kmetko
That's kind of flattering
George Wendt
In a way. I'm glad I never knew that. But the better story is Ratzenberger, he goes in for my role for George, he had was new in town and he'd been working a lot in the UK for 10 years or so. You can tell it's not going too well. And so they're going, well, thank you. And he's like, yeah, thank you. And he starts to go for the door and literally, not figuratively, literally has one foot out the door and he pops his head back into the room and he goes, do you guys have a bar know it all? And they go, no, no. What do you, what do you mean? And he started improvising as this Cliff Clavin character, and they wrote it in.
Steve Kmetko
That's bad's a good story. No, not bad at all.
George Wendt
Spitz by, yeah.
Steve Kmetko
George, thanks for doing this. Still here, Hollywood. I appreciate it.
George Wendt
Oh, man. Yeah, my pleasure. It was fun.
Steve Kmetko
Still here. Hollywood is a production of the Still Here Network, all things technical run by Justin Zangerle. Theme music by Brian Sanyshyn and executive producer is Jim Lichtenstein.